Curse

Aarroe of Gilgamesh · Apr 25, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

simply remove the -health from major and superior runes. people will have to adjust their attribute numbers but then again they have to readjust to a skill balance about once a month anyway. nerf 55ing by empowering everyone instead of nerfing the eles...

fallot · Apr 25, 2006, 10:26 AM // 10:26

That would totally destroy the concept of runes, since everyone will then use a superior for every possible attribute.

quickmonty · Apr 25, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

As fallot said ..... everyone would be using as many superior runes as possible.

There are many solo farming builds besides the 55. Just a matter of switching to something else.

Trin Storm · Apr 25, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

That would totally unbalance the game - AND it would not end bots. 55 is just one build. Basically - the only way to end bots would to be have items bind on aquire and be customized to the character that found them. This of course would be a terrible idea because then you could not pass items to other characters, friends, sell to players etc. It would kill the player based economy.

Thus there is no way to elimate bots. They can sort of be contained , but that is about it.

Aarroe of Gilgamesh · Apr 25, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

how would it unbalance the game, it isnt as tho access to superior runes is denied to anyone? as far as everyone wanting superior runes... i thought superior meant that it was, well, superior... why shouldnt everyone want superior runes? i recently sold a SUPERIOR soul reaping to the trader for 25 gold... go superiors! superiors would then become something to save up for, no big deal. majors would have a purpose in this game since they would them become cost efficient stat boosts until you could afford something better. as far as other builds, i'm sure there are. however none of these builds will ever approach the efficiency of the 55s. go to droks international and watch the flow of 55 monk bots out of the gates. trolls can be soloed with warriors, and necros and lord knows what else, but it isnt being done by the bots for the most part. dont most skills have a break point in efficiency? can anyone point out HOW this would cause an imbalance, other that just saying it would?

fallot · Apr 25, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aarroe of Gilgamesh

how would it unbalance the game, it isnt as tho access to superior runes is denied to anyone? as far as everyone wanting superior runes... i thought superior meant that it was, well, superior... why shouldnt everyone want superior runes? i recently sold a SUPERIOR soul reaping to the trader for 25 gold... go superiors! superiors would then become something to save up for, no big deal. majors would have a purpose in this game since they would them become cost efficient stat boosts until you could afford something better. as far as other builds, i'm sure there are. however none of these builds will ever approach the efficiency of the 55s. go to droks international and watch the flow of 55 monk bots out of the gates. trolls can be soloed with warriors, and necros and lord knows what else, but it isnt being done by the bots for the most part. dont most skills have a break point in efficiency? can anyone point out HOW this would cause an imbalance, other that just saying it would?

It would not be unbalanced at all, there would just no longer be a point to runes. Any such changes will apply equally to PvP and PvE, but the argument for cost doesnt apply when creating a PvP character.

Having three different types of runes, each with their own drawbacks and advantages, adds an element of depth to the game. Guild Wars is a game of choices, its what keeps it interesting. With this change, there is no real choice other than to use superiors except the aforementioned cost argument.

Why even have runes at all then if there are no drawbacks to their use ? Just remove them from the game and you have your answer to 55 monks. This is basically what you are advocating and IMO it would take an excellent mechanic away from the game.

Trin Storm · Apr 25, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Superior runes have a pentaly attached to them. They can give a great bonus, but at a price. You have to trade off health - if that wasn't there everyone would have four - attribute ones - and +3 to every stat - this would be the unbalancign part. It would up the power of everyone with money at no tactical price. While it isn't substancial - at the max level, try thinking of lower levels - suddenly a nuke could have high damage blasts from several element types and greater energy. The whole system is built around a set number of attribute points. Going over that limit is possible but at a cost to a player. Using a superior to move something from 7 to 10 gives you a lot of points to allocate elsewhere - multiply that by four.

I see at the end you get to your real gripe - this isn't about bots is it? Its about that you found a Sup Rune and it didn't sell for much isn't it?

Superior = +3 bonus (with a health penalty), not that it should sell for a lot to the trader. Certain superiors are things to save up for (or find?). There will always be items more in demand than others.

Undivine · Apr 25, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

As many have already mentioned, this doesn't stop bots (since they don't have to be monks, neccessarily) and it ruins the... runes. Ruins the runes... Hmm...

Anyway, it is funny however that the -health, which is supposed to be a penalty, ends up being a benefit in certain builds. If you think removing the health penalty really is the solution, I'd say you really have to replace it with another kind of penalty. An energy or armor penalty, say.

But as has been said before, it wouldn't actually stop bots.

Mercury Angel · Apr 25, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

That aside, if you think simply because 55 monks would be gone, that there would be no way to bot, you're sorely mistaken.

The only way to destroy botting is to make farming a more challenging task that requires human ingenuity, and reducing the ability for people to do things solo, by giving monsters a wider array of skills and abilities.

For any given solo build, there're numerous skills available in the game to give to monsters in order to counter it.

Example;
55 Monk - Mass enchant removal (Well of the Profane bomb for Spell Breaker monks, Rend/Lingering Curse for Shield of Judgment), Symbiosis/Fertile Season, perfect interrupts (the kind only a monster can pull off on even 1/4th second cast spells

), Life Steals, massive degen to accompany base damage, mass small-packet damage (Ignite/Kindle Arrows + Dual Shot spike from multiple archers), Wild Blow to strip defensive stances, well-timed or chained Blackouts, and a mesmer could always annoy you with Signets I suppose, vs Spell Breaker (Partial sarcasm, partially true; Not many non-spells available to mesmers). Snaring, combined with multiple AoE's like Maelstrom or Meteor Shower for shutdown, Gale pinning, Shock, wards, whatever x_x

Maybe some professions of monsters can't combat a specific build entirely, but there's normally more than 1 monster per group, and ideally, more than 1 profession.

The problem is that monsters usually DON'T have a balanced group, using a variety of skills. Often, they don't even have a source of healing, including from themselves. And part of that problem is that their AI isn't very good.
Hence why Stefan, I think, whichever the hench is with Wild Blow simply spams it, removing all of his adrenaline. And I'd imagine monsters have the same issue with using certain skills tactically.

I digress.

I don't support this change, because the penalties were added to runes for a reason, so that people who take them have a drawback for their power-up, and so that people who don't have them, aren't entirely gimped. And while Major Runes need rebalancing to see any use beyond when people can't afford to get Superior (And being a wasted step in unlocking all runes with faction), that has little to nothing to do with this topic.

Kakumei · Apr 25, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aarroe of Gilgamesh

simply remove the -health from major and superior runes. people will have to adjust their attribute numbers but then again they have to readjust to a skill balance about once a month anyway. nerf 55ing by empowering everyone instead of nerfing the eles...

What?

quickmonty · Apr 25, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Did anyone else notice ..... is this just another "nerf 55" thread? Do we want to go there again?

Unlucky Slayer · Apr 25, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

That last phrase of the OP makes me think they're pissed about the AoE nerf and they had a smite nuker. They most likely cant afford to run a 55 and want to see it killed like everyone else.

GloryFox · Apr 25, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

You don't have to totaly remove Health penalties you could just Make Major RUNEs -25 and SUP RUNES -50. In this way yor adding 125 health to all 55rs.

and yes please nerf the 55s, Im sick of going to TOA and all I see is 55 looking for SS/SV. It would be nice to see UW clearing teams again. I don't care if we have favor anymore because no one wants to form 8 man parties for UW like in the early days.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 25, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

/Not signed

Just another 'nerf' 55's!

Too bad you sold your Sup Rune to the Merchant - not the Trader. The Rune Trader will give you a better rate for a Superior Soul Reaping!

Markaedw · Apr 25, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

How about this: just remove the penalty stack as well as the beifit stack

Matsumi · Apr 25, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aarroe of Gilgamesh

simply remove the -health from major and superior runes. people will have to adjust their attribute numbers but then again they have to readjust to a skill balance about once a month anyway. nerf 55ing by empowering everyone instead of nerfing the eles...

How about just nerfing you, that sounds good. lol. Those MM necros and SS necros have just got to go too, get rid of them I say! Sick of fighting my way through 30 minions just to get to the MM that created them. And that SS, and corpse bombs? Good grief, too powerful, that's gotta go too, lol. Get rid of those silly rangers too, those spirits and animals are just too confusing. Get rid of those warriors too, stupid cyclone axe owns me everytime they use it. Might as well get rid of everyone, because they all own me when I'm trying to play, or have more gold than me by the way they play. Nerf nerf nerf!

Seriously though, if you wanted to take botting out of the game, you'd probably have to get rid of the henchmen too. 55 builds don't really matter as far as bots are concerned. I wish people would stop crying to nerf 55 builds.

Skuld · Apr 25, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Just remove the monk class from the game, its not like anyone will miss it..

Thargor · Apr 25, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

so sick of nerf 55 threads and i dont even have a monk to 55 with!
Everyone wants the bots stopped but doesnt want a balance issue, there is only one way to stop the bots. If you remove the ability to make money from virtual gold and items then you WILL stop the bots. Take away the trade button, yes its that simple. You could still transfere gold and items at storage between your own characters, but not with anyone else. High price economy crumbles, no more 100K +ecto BS prices, only way to buy or sell anything is a merchant. No skill unbalance, no nerfing of areas, simple and easy.

quickmonty · Apr 25, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thargor

so sick of nerf 55 threads and i dont even have a monk to 55 with!
Everyone wants the bots stopped but doesnt want a balance issue, there is only one way to stop the bots. If you remove the ability to make money from virtual gold and items then you WILL stop the bots. Take away the trade button, yes its that simple. You could still transfere gold and items at storage between your own characters, but not with anyone else. High price economy crumbles, no more 100K +ecto BS prices, only way to buy or sell anything is a merchant. No skill unbalance, no nerfing of areas, simple and easy.

I don't like that at all. What if I want to give somthing to someone, or just have a friend help me transfer stuff between my two accounts?

I suppose that we could leave town and one just drop stuff on the ground while the other picked it up, but then that could be used instead of the same trade button, with more of a chance for scams and rip-offs.

Thargor · Apr 25, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

I don't like that at all.

Neither do I. I really have no problem with the way things are now, I am not affected by scammers, farming (humans or bots) doesn't bother me, and I have yet to find any weapon or armor that is being sold for more than 10K that cannot be easily duplicated with a collector item and some mods that can be found instead of bought for outrageous prices.
The idea was just thrown out there for the sake of argument and to be honest, I love the replies that it gets from people that are so worried about their large fortunes and uber leet fellblades.
We could go even farther with the idea. Make it so that nothing can be dropped from inventory, sell it , put it in storage, or put it in the trash can.
And just to add some more fuel here make drops only available to the person it dropped for, not customized, just no 2 minute timer on it, if you dont pick it up noone else can, they cant even see it. That would stop the problem of drop stealing by not rezing people. They still might not res you , but at least they wont get the drop. Got some other ideas too but gotta save some for later!